Money Matters Episode 322- Life Planning, Mindfulness, and the Future of Fiduciary Advice W/ George Kinder

George Kinder: [00:00:00] So the learning about mindfulness is not so much about, uh, our clients. It's certainly not to teach our clients, um, because their clients have, they have their own lives and we are a great fiduciary is really just trying to help, help the client live. into who they really want to be. And, uh, but it does enhance our ability to listen to them and hear who they are.

And then the other piece is the civilization piece for financial advisors. You and I know this debate that goes on in financial advice about fiduciary and fiduciary is a good thing by and large. And the, um, uh, there, there is a polarization In practically every level of society right now, and I wrote the book to try and bring an end to that.

So please, if you do get involved with reading it, look at it in that way. But in terms of civilization, I think that the, [00:01:00] I mean, I think there's no excuse now that we're global. to have wars. I think there's no excuse for media not to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I, and it's the same thing for government, the same thing for corporations.

So, and we can do this as human beings, we can do this. So I call that world, and I've got a specific legislative proposal for it in the book,

Chris Hensley: Welcome to Money Matters. Today's episode could completely reshape the way that you think about freedom. Our guest, George Kinder, the father of life planning is here to discuss his newest book, the three domains of freedom. We'll dive deep into how achieving freedom in your finances, your inner self and your outer life can unlock the kind of success and fulfillment that you've only dreamed of.

And by the end of this episode, you'll have actionable steps to take control of your own freedom journey. Stay with us. You won't want to miss this. George, thank you so much for joining us today.

George Kinder: Great [00:02:00] to be

Chris Hensley: here, Chris. Thanks

George Kinder: for asking me.

Chris Hensley: Absolutely. I'm super excited to have you on the show. So that was our generic intro there.

But just for as a personal note, just to share with listeners, you know, I've been in the industry for just over 20 years or so now. And one of the First things that I bought when I got started was a copy of your lighting the torch. This very much, uh, influenced the way that I do my fight when I'm wearing my financial planner hat.

Um, and so I'm super excited to have you on the show. Uh, with that being said, is there something that you could share about yourself? That's maybe outside of that traditional bio. So listeners can get to know you a little bit better.

George Kinder: Well, um, I, I just completed, I mean, my work is all about life planning, as you know, and life planning is about figuring out what it is, what life would give you the most joy, the most passion, the most meaning, be the most profound life for you.

And, And at the center of my life was never doing work. It [00:03:00] was never doing Spreadsheets and all that kind of stuff It was in fact, it was quite the opposite of that. It was um having a spiritual practice writing poetry Um doing some kind of visual art and so I just completed this is it was a 30 year Project I just completed a book of, uh, fi, uh, a uh, five volume set of poetry and photography.

Um, a attempting to inspire people to live. With more presence with really being really present in nature on a pond that I live on called spectacle pond

Chris Hensley: Oh, I love it So that is so that is an area and i'm definitely I want to talk about the the new book the three domains of freedom But I am magnetized towards asking about that.

I all I have a little cabin in the woods, a little five acre plot with a little pond. So, so the, uh, what you've been sharing on social media with your videos there, I've been [00:04:00] watching them, just kind of intrigued with it. But, but for our listeners, we have a lot of fun. We've got kind of a mix between, um, your regular everyday retiree and then financial advisors who also listen to the show for people who don't know exactly what life planning is.

How does it differ from traditional financial planning? So

George Kinder: traditional financial planning is pretty much all about the numbers. And, uh, a client comes in and you kind of ask them, what do you want? And you listen to the goals, but primarily you're trying to put dollars to everything. Um, and, and put, um, and that, you know, that works all right, unless the ladder's on the wrong wall.

So you've, you know, the, the client will also often come in and their expectations, their thoughts about you are all governed by what news says, what personal finance columnists say, what, uh, Wall Street Journal says, what CNBC says. And, but the truth is that each of us has an extraordinary life inside of ourselves that we're meant to live.

It [00:05:00] may not be living in a cabin in the woods as you and I have done, or writing poetry or something like that. It may more often be being with the kids, being a better spouse, bringing more of a spirit of generosity to people that you meet. It can be all kinds of things. It can be a wild creativity, playing the saxophone in a jazz club on Wednesday nights.

And what life planning does is it focuses there and it, it. Um, and what we do, I mean, we train, my job over the last 20 years or so has been to train people to be life planners. And the first thing we train them to do, Chris, is to listen really well. So many of us have experienced the profound listening of a mentor, of a spiritual advisor, of a counselor.

We pride ourselves in the listening qualities of lifeliners. So lifeliners are trained to listen and to build a [00:06:00] relationship so that the, their clients feel very comfortable moving to what they really want, not the dollars and cents, not the retirement amount and all this. Cause what do, what do clients know about that?

If they knew all about that, why, why are they coming to see you in the first place? Right, exactly. So we get, we really ferret out what is it that would make an incredible life for the person that's sitting opposite us, or the couple that's sitting opposite us. And, uh, and that's an incredibly rewarding thing, and that's very different from financial planning, where that's an element.

But it's not the major element. I mean, all of our people, if you're a financial life planner, you're going to still be a certified financial planner. You're still going to manage money and that kind of thing. You're still going to have all the money aspects and be good at them. But this is one where you put the client first.

Chris Hensley: I love it. I love it. And you know, that is often when I'm sitting in front of people and even [00:07:00] thinking about those, the three main questions that came out of this book that I will ask clients as well. Um, how it really, you know, can, can impact their life. How can life planning help clients align their financial resources with their most important life goals?

Do you have any examples from your experience that illustrate this?

George Kinder: Well, I think every single person that goes through a life planning process, um, aligns that passionate purpose that they have identified. We call it a dream of freedom. We call it the torch, which is the name of the book, lighting the torch that you have there, um, where, where all of the finances are meant to support that life of freedom.

Uh, and that happens with everybody. I mean, we, we, and one of the cool things about our trainings, Chris, is that when, when, um, their trainings of advisors, mostly, I mean, there are some coaches that comes in, there's some attorneys, there are other [00:08:00] professionals who come in and take the courses, but, um, primarily their financial advisors.

And when they come in, there's, it's a small number of people, typically 12 people. And, uh, and, uh, What they'll pair up and they'll pair up for the entire four or five day training and so whoever you've paired with You life plan them. Oh, wow, and they life plan you and it's real It's not you know, like let's play at this is real so that everybody leaving that Uh, that four or five day program is on fire about their own life plan.

And they've figured out how to put the finances to it so that it will work. And at the same time, um, they've learned all the skills to actually do it with. With the clients.

Chris Hensley: I love it. I love it. I, you know, I was, as I was doing the research, I looked at your, your, um, your cabin, and then I looked at, you have a home in Hawaii as well.

Is that right? I do, yeah. I, I love it. We were, uh, both me and my wife and my [00:09:00] son, we were vacationing there last year during spring break. We were in la. But, you know, as I know that that was the worst time to visit because the fires broke out then. But, um, I love Hawaii. I think that's a great place. Do you ever do the, uh, the trainings there in Hawaii?

Or are they just kind of all over the place? It just depends.

George Kinder: Yeah, I mean, you know, at my advanced age, you can see that with the white hair, I've been around a while, uh, and a couple of decades longer than you have in the profession and the, uh, So right at this point, you know, at kinder Institute, we have many trainers and they're all over the world.

But there's one training that I do, and it is in Hawaii. Oh, wow. And I'm no longer the lead trainer because I need my breaks, you know,

Chris Hensley: right, right.

George Kinder: I'm a significant figure there, and it's a lot of fun. So we have a Uh, yeah, right there with a 180 degree view of the ocean and the [00:10:00] pasture between us and the ocean.

It's wonderful.

Chris Hensley: It's my favorite, one of my favorite places. I love that. Well, let me, I want to pivot because you know, your newest book, The Three Domains of Freedom, you mentioned freedom just a moment ago, and I think this is a good way to lead into that. In The Three Domains of Freedom, you talk about freedom as it relates to financial, inner and outer domains.

Could you explain how these domains work together to help individuals find greater autonomy in their lives?

George Kinder: Yeah, fantastic question. The, um, the, The three domains of freedom, the secret to it is revealed in its subtitles as you're as you're paraphrasing them. So the subtitles are very succinct, very simple.

And here they are. So the three domains of freedom. Each moment is yours. That's one. Number one. Number two. Your life is yours and that's life planning what we've just been talking about number three Civilization is [00:11:00] yours and wow, that's the one we're all troubled by right now It's the one it's very important.

It's terribly important It's why you know, the political season is so important right at this moment, but we I mean what people don't realize is that Um, I mean, democracy is an incredible thing that we've arrived at, and we're so lucky to have it. And, and what it really is about is, is about us, and, and this is the other thing.

I mean, right at this moment, we've gone global. I mean, yeah, it, you know, here you and I are, we're in America, and America is the thing. But, and it's certainly the political thing right now, but we've gone global, our, our communication. I don't even know where you are right now, Chris, but I know

Chris Hensley: Houston, Texas,

George Kinder: right?

And, and this couldn't have been done, you know, 50 years ago. And, and my white hair, most of my ancestors had passed away by the time they were my age. And we talked about Hawaii. How many, how many [00:12:00] of our ancestors got to go to Hawaii? Um, so there, there are these amazing things and democracy is one of them.

The technology that we have is another, and these amazing things are what species is, what humanity is. And we are meant to be free. And if humanity is civilization and civilization is just a war, it's full of polarized bullies fighting each other on the web. It's, um, mean spirited things, you know, left and right.

We're, we're not, we're not going to survive as a species. So it, this is an incredible time and an incredible opportunity for us to, in fact, define who is it? that we feel we are meant to be as a species. And at each of us is just one little vote out of 8 billion or something, if we're using the whole world.

But the fact is that we can communicate and we can influence our [00:13:00] family. We can talk, we can listen, just like we do in life planning. And all of these are really good things. And it's part of participating in what it is to be human. So civilization is yours is the one that benefits you. People get troubled by, but gosh, it's an important, it's the most important in a way.

But then the first one, you know, the first one was each moment is yours, right? And the first one is kind of this amazing thing. So your life is yours. That's life planning. And that's, each of us has like a hero's journey. We want to live on, we want to be somebody. And we've thought about that throughout our life.

We've wanted to be somebody and that's life planning. Make sure that happens. But what's, what's odd is that how many moments are there in a day, you know, and how often in that day are we driven by something rather than feeling free. So usually you and I have these cabins in the woods, usually those cabins in the woods, right?

They're meant to, Right. Feel free. We get [00:14:00] away and we get to feel free. Right. But what they are, and also inside of our hearts, they're like, um, what calls us to simplicity, uh, to truth, to freedom in a way that's pretty remarkable. Nature calls us in that way. And, um, and so, but each moment we have the opportunity to be free.

And that's an extraordinary thing. So I've, I've taught mindfulness for many years and practice it for many years. Mindfulness is one of the, I mean, there are many meditative and contemplative techniques and they all are good in this particular arena, but mindfulness, you know, if you Google it, you'll find that it's for good health or for focus or for, to reduce your stress.

Those are all right, but the real truth is, is that mindfulness is a practice toward the mastery of the present moment. And, and this is the, the two, two more amazing things and then I'll pause. [00:15:00] But the um, um, the only moment we've ever experienced Is the present moment. So why would you not want to have a mastery of that to get more and more awake in that moment to be more and more at ease in that moment to be more and more happy in that moment to be more and more vital in that moment.

And the second question, the second, the second point I'm going to make, and then I'll, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll let you in, so to speak. The second point I want to make is that, and I ask this as a trick question often, or it could be a thousand people I'm asking, and I say, hey, I want you all to raise your hand, and it is a trick question, but the question is, have you ever experienced a moment of freedom in the past?

And it may be, you know, at your cabin in nature, it might be walking the beach, it might be making love, it might be playing the saxophone, it might be, um, you know, playing with the kids, it might be doing something entrepreneurial. Have you ever [00:16:00] experienced a moment of freedom in the past? And I say, I want you all to raise your hand.

And of course, everybody does. And then I say, you all got it wrong, because we have never experienced a moment of freedom in the past. We've only experienced freedom in the present moment. So again, this, uh, so a third of the book, the book is really easy to read. It's very small. I think it's profound. It's got a lot of wisdom in it.

So you can read it relatively quickly, but also it makes you think deeply, which is, and it's inspiring. So, uh, all about freedom. There you go.

Chris Hensley: I love it. So that is a lot, a lot of really good stuff to, to unpack here. Uh, for sure. Uh, you know, you started, we started the interview at the beginning when we were talking about just kind of noise that, you know, in, when we talk about life planning, that clients come in thinking about the numbers and their statements and all of this stuff, but it turns out that this stuff is the most, this other stuff is, is out there.

Equally or [00:17:00] even more important. Right? And in this book, you go deeper and we talk about democracy. We talk about civilization. You know, one of my things is I just want to leave the planet better than I found it. That's one of my personal goals. Right? Sounds simple enough. Beautiful. I love it. Yes, absolutely.

But it can be quite complex, right? So, so I love it. So this book, this has been years of, of other writings that have led up to this, to this book. Um, let's talk, let's just expand a little bit further. How do you hope the insights from the three domains of freedom will impact the future of financial planning and the relationships between advisors and their clients?

George Kinder: Well, the, um, the, the, uh, The centerpiece of the book is life planning. And again, it's a brief book. It's a short book. It's written for consumers, but you know, you and I know that advisors will buy it like crazy because it's where I'm [00:18:00] known. Uh, and so the centerpiece of the book is about life planning. So it's a reminder of all these different elements of it, but I think the important thing for financial advisors to recognize, well, one of the things with mindfulness, if you claim the present moment is yours, if you make a practice of it, in every one of our trainings, We include some element of mindfulness in the training and you go, well, why do you do that?

And in the early days, I used to do it because I thought there was a connection with freedom and freedom was very important. But over the years, I realized that the very best listeners I knew were practitioners of mindfulness. And the reason is they're more present. They've, they've accumulated more of a mastery of the present moment.

They've, um, what any contemplative practice does, any, any spiritual tradition or any secular tradition, is that [00:19:00] it lets go of all of those things. that get in your way. You know, it's like, you know, the things that you're neurotic about, the things that you're clinging to, the things that you're upset about, frustrated or angry or jealous about.

And it, it practices softening those elements so that you can be more here with greater emotional intelligence and more presence. So the learning about mindfulness is not so much about, Uh, our clients and certainly not to teach our clients, um, because their clients have, they have their own lives and we are a great fiduciary is really just trying to help, help the client live.

into who they really want to be. And, uh, but it does enhance our ability to listen to them and hear who they are. And then the other piece is the civilization piece for financial advisors. You and I know this debate that goes on in financial advice about fiduciary [00:20:00] and fiduciary is a good thing by and large.

And the, um, uh, there, there is a polarization In practically every level of society right now, and I wrote the book to try and bring an end to that. So please, if you do get involved with reading it, look at it in that way. But in terms of civilization, I think that the, I mean, I think there's no excuse now that we're global.

I think there's no excuse for media not to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I, I, and it's the same thing for government, the same thing for corporations. So, and we can do this as human beings, we can do this. So I call that world, and I've got a specific legislative proposal for it in the book.

I call that world a fiduciary world where all our institutions Place humanity, the truth, democracy, and the planet, there you are with your issue [00:21:00] there, and the planet ahead of their own self interest. We kind of expect that, but we know at the same time it's just not true. Those large institutions have self interest, and they are often going for that self interest, and it shocks us when we see that they're not really there in a trustworthy way.

For all of civilization. Well, I think they should be. And I think it's a pretty simple thing to legislate and to make and to make happen.

Chris Hensley: I love it. What a great conversation here. I think of the idea of stewardship when when I hear you discussing this. I also think of just the idea of agency, the idea that, you know, it's very easy to become a A skeptic and healthy dose of skepticism is okay, but if it makes it where you're not participating in these processes like democracy and civilization, it makes you think you can't do anything about it.

So, uh, being, you know, this legislation that you're proposing in the book sounds fascinating. I [00:22:00] definitely will. We'll dive deeper into that. We've got just a few more minutes before the end of the show, uh, about five or six more minutes here. And I definitely wanted to ask you, this is a Chris thing here.

Uh, the, the other book that you wrote, the reflections on spectacle pond. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Because that is unique and tell us what that was about.

George Kinder: Well, that was, that was my life plan. So, um, so, uh, 30 years ago, I arrived at this place on, on Spectacle Pond and I, I, but you know, when I, when you do life planning, you, you have this vision and you find, and my vision was to live in nature.

and to do creative work and to do deep work, you know, spiritual work. And, and so I, when I arrived here, I was stunned by how beautiful it was to be on a pond. I mean, you're on a pond too. I'm in a peninsula that goes out into the center of the pond. It's just extraordinary. Uh, the [00:23:00] feng shui, what they call, you know, there you are with water all around you.

And, um, and I, when I got here, I was like, I went out and for the first time since I was a boy, I bought a camera. Nowadays we think, oh, our cell phones, how could you be without a camera? You've always got a camera. Well, that wasn't always the case, as you know. And so I went out and bought a camera, and I started immediately writing about what my experience was here.

And what I came to realize was that I was on a journey to capture every single moment. Day of the year, and I did that in every week of the year, too. So one book is every week of the year, and then there are four books for each day of the sea of each season. So what I've tried to do on each day of the of each season is to capture in photography anywhere from one to six photographs intermingled together with.

Poetry and again, maybe from one to six poems, uh, on a two page spread. I've attempted to give you an [00:24:00] experience of the day and of my own wrestling with How can I be more present? How can I be more here? How can I be more kind sometimes? How can I be more generous? How can I be more thoughtful? But really, how can I listen better to the weather, to nature, to the leaves, to the walk, to the pond?

And so what I hope to do with that is to inspire people. I mean, Thoreau was on Malden just 10 miles To the east of where I am right now. He certainly inspired me. And so I wanted to deliver something I wanted in some way to go beyond what he did and give something that every day of the year. A reader would have something that might take them more deeply into being present in nature around them.

Chris Hensley: Fantastic. I love it. I love it. I love it. George, we're bumping towards the end of the show. For listeners who'd like to find out more, they can purchase these books. What's the best way for them to find out more about [00:25:00] yourself and where they can get access to the books?

George Kinder: George Kinder george kinder.com, www.george kinder.com and um, you'll find a lot about me and you'll find directly the reflections on Spectacle Pond.

We have a free version that can come out on a weekly basis, just, uh. Um, one day a week. Um, uh, and that's through Substack, but you can find it through georgekinder. com. And, uh,

Chris Hensley: for, for listeners who are driving right now, don't feel like you have to write it down because we'll have a link on the podcast.

Substack's fantastic. If you sign up for it, it'll be able to kind of enroll you and you'll get more information there. George, the last few moments here of the show, what have I forgot to ask you? That you'd like to share with listeners today.

George Kinder: Oh, I don't know, man. I mean, it's been such a joy to be here, Chris, and I'm so glad you touched on these two, two books, because they really, I mean, for me, they've been my legacy, and I didn't know that I would get them done.

I mean, that 30 year period. [00:26:00] What if I passed away before I finished it? And so it was an amazing thing. Thing in the last couple of years to finish all that work and

Chris Hensley: holy smokes. What a great thing to share with us, George. What a gr uh, good thought to leave it on today. Have a good rest of the day. Thank you for being on the show today.

George Kinder: Great. Thanks Chris.