Money Matters Episode 317- Inflation and Retirement in Emerging Markets W/ Jason Hsu

Money Matters 317

Jason Hsu: [00:00:00] But I think. That wall is about to hit, right? We're looking at about 12, 000 boomers retiring daily in this country. And if you're surprised by the tightness in neighbor market, the inflation driven by wage inflation, that is a big driver for that. And so inflation is almost the other side of the coin when you think about aging demographics, right?

Jason Hsu: It means people with money are now not working. And not saving, but spending money, right? So that's almost, you know, from deflationary where we work and save money to very inflationary when we don't work and we're spending that money. So I think for anyone to think that inflation is a short term thing, it's mostly a government printing money thing.

Jason Hsu: No, there's a big structural reason. Boomers retiring, aging demographics in this country, but more globally in all of the advanced economies.

Christopher Hensley: Welcome to Money Matters, the podcast where we decode the future of finance for you. Joining us today is Jason Hsu, a visionary leader whose work at the helm of Reliant Global Advisors has redefined global investment paradigms. Founder, Chairman, [00:01:00] and CIO of Reliant Global Advisors, Jason brings a wealth of insights of experience from the forefront of quantitative and quantum mental investment strategies with accolades like the Graham and Dodd Scroll Awards and the William F.

Christopher Hensley: Schauer Awards under his belt. Jason's insights on global demographic shifts impact your investment choices all the are indispensable. Today we'll explore how these profound changes are reshaping economies worldwide and what that means for your long term security and prosperity. Get ready to expand your perspective with one of the leading minds in finance as we navigate the complexities of an evolving world.

Christopher Hensley: Jason, thank you for joining this show. Welcome. Chris, thank you for having me. Absolutely. I'm super excited to have you on the show. Uh, you know, this is another for listeners who've been listening. I went to the future proof event, um, in Colorado, you know, recently, and I want to say I've had three or four people that, that we met from good old fashioned networking.

Christopher Hensley: Um, you [00:02:00] hosted one of the most fun events. There, uh, at future proof and that was the zip lining event. So, you know, we found ourselves on a little mini van on the way up the side of a mountain, uh, uh, go getting up to the, to the zip lining there. So that, that, that's how we met there. So I I'm familiar with you, but for listeners who may not be as familiar, could you share something about yourself maybe outside of the bio so we can get to know you a little bit better?

Jason Hsu: Yeah. So, um, I, I, I'm also a, uh, business school professor and in fact teaching is probably my first love and my true love. So in some ways, um, you know, the part about my job I enjoy the most is, uh, sort of sharing what I research in a way that actually is useful, understandable, and consumable. Uh, for, for prospect and, and, and clients of ours, uh, so, so thank you for giving this opportunity to do what I really love, which is to, to explain my research, hopefully in a way that your audience will find useful.[00:03:00]

Christopher Hensley: Yeah, I love it. And you know, I know at the end, we'll make sure that listeners get a way to get access to your newsletters and everything. And one of the newsletters that you wrote recently had to do with changing demographics. And I thought that would be a good one for our listeners. So let's just, let's just dive right into it.

Christopher Hensley: How do global demographics shift particular aging populations and develop markets influence investment strategies for pre retirees?

Jason Hsu: So the one thing that we've talked about forever in a day is boomers are retiring, right? But that impact is so slow. You kind of, you know, been able to shrug it off and, and really it has an impact as your portfolio.

Jason Hsu: But I think that wall is about to hit, right? We're looking at about 12, 000 boomers retiring daily in this country. And if you're surprised by the tight list and neighbor market, the inflation driven by wage inflation, that is a big driver for that. And so inflation is almost the other side of the coin.

Jason Hsu: When you think about aging demographics, right? It means people with [00:04:00] money. are now not working and not saving, but spending money, right? So that's almost, you know, from deflationary where we work and save money to very inflationary when we don't work and we're spending that money. So I think for anyone to think that inflation is a short term thing, it's mostly a government printing money thing.

Jason Hsu: No, there's a big structural reason. Boomers retiring, aging demographics in this country, but more globally in all of the advanced economies.

Christopher Hensley: You know, we, as advisors, we hear that number that, you know, 12, 000 boomers are retiring daily. And we've heard that for the last 10 years, we almost get desensitized to it.

Christopher Hensley: But I like the way that you're sharing with listeners that, you know, these are people that were working that are no longer working and no longer spending as much and how that's tied into inflation. That is, that's huge. Um, Let's talk about, you know, you're one of the, how I know, uh, emerging markets, you know, that's, that's what you're known for.

Christopher Hensley: Uh, given the changing dynamics between developed and emerging [00:05:00] market, what opportunity should pre retirees consider an emerging market?

Jason Hsu: Right. So I've just stated kind of the problem, which is like, if you know, we Americans are going to retire and want to spend the wealth we have accumulated, well, someone's got to do the work, right?

Jason Hsu: Otherwise you just have inflation. Everything gets more expensive and our wealth is meaningless, right? So to solve that problem, what we need is we need younger population. And generally we're going to find them in emerging economies who are in manufacturing. So they ship their labor to us in terms of low cost goods so we can continue to consume them at reasonable prices.

Jason Hsu: So they're almost. The other end of the coin, right? The other side. So they're the solution. And as we age, right, we're going to depend on that labor force, a younger pool of cheap labor who will provide manufactured goods to us. And that will also gradually mean they're going to get better terms of trade, right?

Jason Hsu: I mean, historically they sold cheap goods. We capture most of the value. I think we're going to see them asking for a pay raise, much like the labor in the U. S. is [00:06:00] asking for a pay raise. Now they see the opportunity. Same thing in emerging markets, right? And so we're going to see. Better margin, better profitability growth.

Jason Hsu: That's both from exporting, but now exporting at higher prices, uh, from EM. So that's really the opportunity for EM. And it's a way for you to hedge, um, the coming inflationary pressure, right? It's you buy, you know, uh, countries that can export a deflation to us and solve our inflationary problems. So, you know, if you're buying gold as a way to hedge inflation, I think there's something else you need to buy.

Jason Hsu: Which is the low cost manufacturing capability, that human capital in emerging markets, uh, as a way to hedge this long term structural inflationary problems driven by our demographics.

Christopher Hensley: I love it. And, you know, we've heard the emerging markets story many times, but I really like to frame it the way that you just did with age.

Christopher Hensley: The, you know, the idea of the, The aging boomers in the U. S. But then you've got a younger population when we look at manufacturing, [00:07:00] uh, exporting, but at higher prices, right? So really being able to hedge that, uh, that is an interesting way to look at it. I think that's a really good thing to point out.

Christopher Hensley: Let's talk about. We'll kind of pivot a little bit here and talk about currency reevaluation. Can you discuss the potential impact of currency reevaluation in emerging markets? On retirement portfolio.

Jason Hsu: Yep. Absolutely. Right. I think there's a big concern in this country and rightfully so Um that the dollar is going to gradually weaken as we simply have to spend more to keep our government Functioning, uh, and so you've kind of seen that, you know in terms of gold price in terms of real estate prices The hard assets have clearly shown that That the dollar sort of weakens, but you know, what are you going to do?

Jason Hsu: Uh, what currency would you want to hold? Do you want to hold the euro? Do you want to, you know, hold the British pounds? No, they're weakening at the same speed, probably faster than the U. S. because they face some of our same problem. They're aging even faster, right? They don't even [00:08:00] have the kind of immigration we have to, to, to, you know, we use immigration as a way to age slower.

Jason Hsu: So you really got to look to currencies, which are going to appreciate against us, because what's backing those currencies, The appreciating harder assets. And this is where I like the em, uh, currency. And, and, and this is not a hypothesis, right? You just look at the emerging market countries at export, right?

Jason Hsu: It started with Japan, right? It used to be 400 Ys the dollar, and then it got to 200 and it got to 100 Ys, the dollar its peak. You saw the same thing with Korean one, uh, Taiwanese dollars later on with the Reming B, right? Any Asian export economy, generally they're the dominant economy in the EM basket.

Jason Hsu: As they export more, you see that currency appreciate as the human capital becomes more valuable, as they can extract higher prices, as they do higher quality work. And so again, I think the emerging market opportunities is not only are they going to charge higher prices. going to have a stronger currency because they simply will have more stuff back in their currency than we do.[00:09:00]

Christopher Hensley: I love it. You know, you've probably heard this story from many advisors that you've talked to where we know that we should have a non, uh, uh, geographically biased, global portfolio yet. The story with the, you know, being skewed towards U. S. Domestic for a long time. That's, that's been a thing. But when you mention things like currency reevaluation, it's not a hypothesis.

Christopher Hensley: We can see it that, you know, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up there. It makes me say, you know, we, you know, if you're wanting to have non correlated assets and you want to have a truly diverse portfolio, There's an argument for their, for that for sure. Um, so, okay, so I'm going to, I went off on a little soapbox for a second, but let me, let me get back to, uh, to inflation concerns, right?

Christopher Hensley: Cause that's a huge thing. How might inflationary pressures from an aging global workforce affect fixed income investments for a retiree?

Jason Hsu: Okay. So, um, this is [00:10:00] where there there's, there's a famous book done by two Harvard professors and it's called financial repression. So, what that says is, developed world governments are literally, uh, near bankruptcy, right?

Jason Hsu: I mean, the only way they finance themselves is they keep interest rate really low, so their debt servicing is really low because they have no intention of paying back that debt, right? There's just no, no ability, right? They would have to tax so much and you would get a revolution. And so, uh, Interest rate is going to be, uh, low, near zero, really, um, and you've seen that with Japan, you've seen that with the Eurozone, uh, and the U.

Jason Hsu: S. tried it for a short while, um, and so we're gonna get back to, to there, and so if you are a retiree, and you say, hey, look, I'm gonna live off of my retirement income, you know, I built up a two million, three million dollar portfolio, hey, if I can have retirement. 5 percent interest rate, right, you know like plus my retirement benefit.

Jason Hsu: I could have an easy life [00:11:00] No, because that interest income is going to get back close to to to to abysmally poor very soon You know the minute we can afford to rate cut again So I would say as a retiree your job has been made very difficult, right? You can't really de risk into just a fixed income portfolio because fixed income is not going to pay you so that means as a As a retiree, you're forced and you will have to take, um, equity risk within your portfolio.

Jason Hsu: You just have to think about, well, how do I take the equity risk in the portfolio so that it's, uh, it's, it's, it's going to offset the inflation risk I face, right? I, so I'm going to go back to your question, Chris, you know, what does that mean for the retirees fixing a portfolio? You're not going to want a 60 40, you're not going to, you know, you don't want to hold, um, an income portfolio based off of just sitting on T bills, that isn't going to work well enough for you.

Jason Hsu: Now tactically, I think we got some rate cut coming, so not recommending that you get out of loan day to fixed income, get out of duration just yet. [00:12:00] But I would say, um, the rate cut is going to give you a big one time boom in terms of fixed income, uh, revaluation. But once rates are low again, you're going to have to move off of that, um, because you're not going to get enough income out of your fixed income.

Jason Hsu: And, uh, and it's time to be really intelligent about how to selectively, um, sort of redeploy that bucket to get, to get the inflation hedge.

Christopher Hensley: I love it. So this is, you know, this is a conversation we have with our clients that got rich in the 80s and you could take a bucket of money and put it in bonds and you were okay, right?

Christopher Hensley: That changed over the course of the last, you know, X number of years. We may have gotten a little bit spoiled as we've seen the recent run up and stable value fixed. Cash equivalents, CDs, that kind of stuff, but you're giving us a really good reminder that there's only one place it can go. And we know that that will, that's, that's in, you know, we should have this on our radar as retirees to not get, um, you know, with these recent things that we've seen, don't get too spoiled with it cause it will change.[00:13:00]

Christopher Hensley: It will change. Let's talk about trade dynamics because that's another area that you've talked a lot about, uh, with emerging market gaining leverage over older trading partners. How can pre retirees adjust your and their investment portfolios to benefit from this shift?

Jason Hsu: Yeah. So, you know, a lot of people, when you say, ah, you know, you should look at emerging markets, right?

Jason Hsu: I said, I heard that story for the last 10 years. It hasn't worked there. Right. And I don't expect it to change. So let me kind of walk people through why it didn't work. And why it's going to change right because this is not a oh, you know, the history is It's going to rhyme kind of situation. So historically when you look at em, right em has grown historically, right?

Jason Hsu: Em has been productive. It sells a lot of stuff right both Uh in terms of raw resources, um and manufactured goods, right? Em has been incredibly productive for the developed markets, right? They're a big part of why we have such a wonderful standard of living So it's not for the lack [00:14:00] of growth in those markets.

Jason Hsu: What's really plagued them is they had no pricing power, right? So give me some examples. So Chris, you probably didn't know, like for every hundred million dollars worth of raw resources that we take out of Africa, Guess how much they get to keep? 10, 000. Really? That's such an abysmally poor split. It's not one basis point.

Jason Hsu: It's like a tiny fraction of one basis point. If you're an advisor, you sure hope you're not taking that kind of fee. That doesn't generate any profit. You would work so hard to keep so little. Another example, like iPhone. A low grade, cheapest iPhone goes for 800. Right? The guy who makes the iPhone, Foxconn, one of the biggest contract manufacturers in Asia, right?

Jason Hsu: They make 8 out of getting all the material, put it together and ship it to Cupertino. And in that case, Apple makes what? 300. [00:15:00] You look at Amazon, right? Like China exports 3. 3 trillion bucks worth of Stuff mostly consume in the U. S. The exporters in China make 60 billion out of the 3. 3 trillion they export.

Jason Hsu: The Amazon type platform takes in 300 billion, right? And so it's not, EM isn't productive. They create a lot of value. Just a lot of value gets captured by American consumers and American platforms who, who sell to the consumers. And so. The theory for EM is not about EM is going to be more productive, right?

Jason Hsu: The theory for EM is EM is finally going to be able to negotiate for a pay raise, right? EM is finally going to say, This is not okay, you know, I can't put up with this and they're able to do that not because you know They're just going to get angry and negotiate that doesn't work Why it's the chip and supply and demand right used to be there too many poor em countries are willing to do dirt cheap work And compete to price undercut each other.

Jason Hsu: Um, and You know, and, and, and DM, right? [00:16:00] Um, you know, basically have to have all the, all the leverage bargaining power, uh, as DM gets older and older, it's bargaining power decreases. And as EM gets wealthy and wealthier, right? Like now you're seeing China saying, you know, I don't want to make t shirts and jeans anymore, right?

Jason Hsu: I don't want to make sneakers like that. That got, that's gotta go to Vietnam. That's gotta go to Thailand, right? We don't make enough margin to pay our workers that way. Like we can make, you know, high end laptops and cell phones. That's it, right? So as EM gets wealthier, they're going to. renegotiate and say, look, you just got to pay me a lot more to keep me interested in working horrible factory hours.

Jason Hsu: So that is actually the dynamics that is going to shift for EM, right? So we're going to see EM corporate earnings come up not because EM companies are more productive. They will be more productive, but it's because they can finally get a better margin, right? So the two percent margin they could go up to four to six, uh, and that's because Productivity, uh, capacity is going to be much more value over the next 20 years than the past 20 years.

Jason Hsu: And so it's really about [00:17:00] this changing bargaining position. That is the true story for the thesis where you have now.

Christopher Hensley: That makes a lot of sense. I mean, especially with the examples that you just gave, uh, the Amazon, the iPhone and the small percentage of what they were actually making compared to what the revenue is for those companies there, there's this ongoing Theme.

Christopher Hensley: I'm hearing you mentioned more than once there about, uh, them negotiating for a pay raise and how detrimental that is to, to this whole EM discussion there. Let's talk a little bit about asset price appreciation. What types of assets do you see appreciating in the context of an aging global population and how can pre retirees safely incorporate these into their portfolios?

Jason Hsu: And because the inflation this time is going to be driven by really a, you know, shift in labor supply, right? Because a lot of people retire, right? Less labor supply, right? And so the inflation, right? You don't want [00:18:00] to just think, ah, inflation, you know, I gotta buy hard assets, right? You know, sometimes inflation is reflected in just hard assets like, you know, real estate and commodities going up, but sometimes it's the softer side, right?

Jason Hsu: It's the human capital that's going up. That's, that's, you know, what we're seeing in the U S which is, it's actually more of the increase in wage rate than just commodities becoming pricier. So the way to hedge that is you got to go and own human capital, which is damn near impossible, right? You can't go pre contract, you know, 80 hours of someone's.

Jason Hsu: You know, you know, time, time in the future. It just doesn't work. There's no market for that. Right? So the way to do that is, well, how do you buy human capital? How do you buy labor? Well, you got to go to manufacturing firms in emerging markets and you buy those firms because those firms have a way of tapping into that human capital and organizing them into production.

Jason Hsu: So instead of thinking. Inflation easy. I buy gold. I buy hard assets That's not going to [00:19:00] be enough and it may actually not capture enough of the wage increase, right? Because this is not a hard asset driven inflation. This is not a monetary printing inflation There's some of that for sure, but it's going to be a tightness in labor market labor wage stickiness inflation And so the hedge against that you've got to go buy human capital and the way to do that is you buy manufacturing uh powerhouses In emerging markets who really specialize in finding cheap labor, organizing them and creating productivity out of that.

Christopher Hensley: That's a really good way to explain that because you know, you started, that's what it pops into people's mind. When you hear inflation, they think real estate goal, commodities, these things that have, you know, when we see inflation, but it's a reminder there that this human, human capital portion of it, and then the manufacturing and the production and trying to grab that and EM having access to it as part of the story for EM.

Christopher Hensley: So that's a, that's a good way to explain it. explain it. I haven't heard it explained that way, so I think that's a really good way to, uh, to look at it there. Let's talk about [00:20:00] wage inflation in retirement planning. How should pre retirees prepare for the possibility of wage inflation impacting their savings and investment returns?

Jason Hsu: Yep. So, you know, it, the wealth accumulation that we've seen for the pre retirees, it does so well because the stock market has really just turbocharged wealth accumulation in their 401k. Uh, and then for those that are lucky enough to have some defined benefit, right, it means they're going to pay you out because they, they're flush with cash.

Jason Hsu: So, you're, you're all good, right? I was all centered, but, uh, the risk is, okay, that's sort of nominal money coming in, but what if once you retire, things are really expensive, right? And so again, so for pre retirees, the way you want to position your portfolio is to understand the source of that inflation and hedge it off.

Jason Hsu: And it's really to it. So we've been, we've been repeating that in, in, in, you know, this podcast, right? Clearly the U. S. will continue to print money, which means over time U. S. currency will weaken [00:21:00] against, um, Economies that don't have to print money. And again, printing money is more of an artifact of developed economies that simply the government's gotten too big over time with each election promising more goodies, right?

Jason Hsu: Emerging markets don't have the same problem, right? They're big export, they earn a lot of dollars, the government, you know, you know, don't get into this sort of debt finance consumption just yet, right? They haven't got that point yet. So you're going to have relative strength there from money printing.

Jason Hsu: And the other part, of course, is a big part of your inflation risk is, of course, U. S. wage. escalating and running away. And I don't think the Fed is the solution, right? I don't think the Fed will, will go back to, you know, 12 percent to fight, uh, uh, wage inflation, because that's not going to work because the structural issue is we don't have people to work, right?

Jason Hsu: You can, you can hurt firms a lot, but that's not going to change the fact that we don't have enough people to work. So the punishing higher rate is not the solution. The solution is for you to really buy firms that can access low cost human. [00:22:00] Low cost, but high quality human capital in the emerging market.

Jason Hsu: So I'd say, you know, for investors, when you're looking at, at your portfolio, it's a, it's really time to shift away from anything that's just consumer oriented. That's about selling you more stuff to buy. You want to now shift toward industries, shift toward countries where they own a lot of the manufacturing capabilities, right?

Jason Hsu: Historically it's been distribution who capture all the margin. I think that's going to shift in a big time, right? So instead of thinking of digital platforms, the Amazons who made money by distributing what other people produce, I think that bargaining power is going to change and distribution will get a lot less and the manufacturing is going to get a lot more.

Jason Hsu: So again, in the portfolio, a shift away from what the distribution, what a consumer, uh, sort of driven names into more of the manufacturer driven names.

Christopher Hensley: I love it. You know, I talk a lot with clients about what I call act two, right? So, so, you know, act one is what we just mentioned when you [00:23:00] talked about wealth accumulate accumulation in the 401k.

Christopher Hensley: If they've got it, if they're lucky enough to have a defined benefit there that that's done really well for them, but we're not done yet. So the idea of. Inflation. And then the idea of the, the dollar that you have now, but not being able to purchase, uh, as much as it was in the past. We talked about printing money.

Christopher Hensley: Um, you know, that not, not necessarily a probably problem for em, but for countries like us, , uh, this, this is a thing. Um, and then US wage escalating, right? This, this really bringing on to our radar the idea of EM and countries that have manufacturer and production, including that as a global. Portfolio, getting that onto your radar.

Christopher Hensley: Uh, we've got, you know, just a few minutes here. We've got about six minutes before the end of the show. So I do want to make sure I'm asking some of these more long term questions. What's your long term outlook for a global economy? Considering these demographic shifts that you talk about, how should that [00:24:00] influence retirement planning?

Jason Hsu: Yeah. So, um, you know, in terms of kind of my outlook, I am probably, you know, Uh, you know, I would say short run tactical. I, I still like the U. S. because A. I. is, you know, a credible solution to aging demographics, right? If we can have machines do a lot of the work, we may not need humans to do it. Uh, I, I, I think it's more of a framework.

Jason Hsu: FOMO, and I'm all for someone tactically riding that bubble a little bit, because we know bubble can often run longer and bigger than you expect, but I don't think it's a complete solution in a sense that look, you know, AI mostly has replaced highly skilled programmers and creative artists, right? Like in terms of the service sector, right?

Jason Hsu: Like we don't have a robot who's smart enough to wash my hair and cut my hair and wheel me in and out of the hospital, right? So I wouldn't get too excited about that, but I would say tactically the AI theme. At [00:25:00] least apply to solving, you know, shortage in labor could be interesting. Right? Uh, I think where I'm most pessimistic is like Europe, right?

Jason Hsu: They don't even have firms that are AI theme, right? Like they, they are aging. They don't have great solution. They're probably going to be held complete at bay by emerging markets. Um, they print more money. It's a bigger, bigger basket case. So I would be a big underweight for broadly Europe. Um, so in IFA, like the only thing I like is, is Japan, right?

Jason Hsu: I mean, Japan is old, it's got all the same problem, but at least Japan has managed to, um, you know, not suffer the same inflation issues that the U. S. and Europe have because their population saves so much money, right? Completely offsets, you know, any inefficiency on the government sector, uh, and with the super cheap yen going back to the U.

Jason Hsu: S. To pick up their manufacturing capability, to be competitive against other Asian economies. They have such a manufacturing culture, so I do like them. And of course, you know, I'm repeating myself here to say, and of course I love EM, right? I [00:26:00] think it's a big secular bull market. And it's really a, this time is different type of structural shift.

Jason Hsu: So those are kind of my, my long term underweights would be kind of Japan and EM, both manufacturing powerhouses, us for that tactical reason, it's very expensive, but you know, God, the formal can run longer and bigger than one imagined, uh, and an obvious underweight is Europe for me in the asset allocation context.

Christopher Hensley: I love it. Thank you for sharing that. A lot of really good information there. Talked a little bit about AI and, you know, everybody's all excited about that. We talked about FOMO, fear of missing out on, on some of that and some of the things that it won't be able to replace, but there's, there's a reason to be looking at that right now.

Christopher Hensley: So that's, that's good to hear that. You talked about Japan. I mean, go and figure a country that, uh, Incentivizes savings versus penalizes that to see that that's actually a really good thing. Um, and so that having that on your radar there, um, is, is good. Um, of course, is one that [00:27:00] we're going to be looking at.

Christopher Hensley: Uh, and then, you know, uh, Europe here is just an idea of underweighting. And so these are some ideas I can see my compliance guy listening to the podcast and having a heart attack in the background. So I always got to remind people that, you know, this is for educational purposes only definitely do your own due diligence.

Christopher Hensley: Uh, this is not to replace a financial professional. However, we're doing a big. big, glossy look at some of these, uh, ideas here. And I appreciate you sharing this with us because this is really, really good information. As we close the show, we're right here at the end. Uh, Jason, what have I forgot to mention to listeners that you'd like to share with them today?

Jason Hsu: Uh, well, I would say, uh, you know, do follow me on, on social media. Um, you know, I, I, I got on the social media and I realized how addictive it is to have people like what I publish, right? Like, I, I, I shouldn't be of that age cohort, but it is like this. Once you put stuff out on the internet, you feel like really insecure when no one reads it.

Jason Hsu: No one likes it. Uh, so please just for, [00:28:00] for, for my ego sake, you know, follow me on social media, uh, follow my research. Uh, I'm very easy to find on LinkedIn, just put in my name, Jason Hsu, and you can subscribe to my newsletter, The Bridge. Uh, and, uh, and, you know, ping me through LinkedIn chat group and, and I will be responsive and hopefully helpful as well.

Christopher Hensley: Absolutely. So I've been following the newsletter since I've subscribed. Great information. Listeners definitely encourage them to reach out and subscribe. And then to find out more about Reliant, what is the website for people to find out about Reliant?

Jason Hsu: Yeah. So, uh, www. rayliant.

Jason Hsu: com. Uh, and, uh, you know, for the range of funds product we have, it's funds, uh, dot Reliant. com.

Christopher Hensley: Perfect. Okay. And if you're driving, don't worry. I'll have that in the podcast notes. So, uh, Jason, thank you so much for joining us today. Have a great rest of the afternoon there.

Jason Hsu: All right. Thanks, Chris. And thanks everyone.