Money Matters Episode 311- The Decisive Manager: Hybrid Teams w/ Barbara Mitchell and Cornelia Gamlem

Money Matters 311

[00:00:00] You want people to be in the office more frequently, and, and I, I honestly think that mandating everybody to be there five days a week during certain hours is a big mistake because they're just gonna look for someplace else to work. But if you wanna draw them into the office. Make it a magnet. Make make there be a reason for them to be there.

You know, if you want people in the office twice a week for meetings and so that they can collaborate with with other people, make sure it's it's a meaningful experience. And it's going to be. worth their time and effort to get there. If, if most, if most of your workforce is fairly close by, you know, not, not out in, you know, remote areas around the country, you can do some fun things on occasion.

Um, you know, have fun. Good morning, everybody. You are listening to Money Matters today on Money Matters. We're diving deep into the art and science of exceptional [00:01:00] leadership with two trailblazers in the field of human resources and management, Barbara Mitchell and Cornelia Gamlam.

Cornelia, a returning guest. Cornelia, welcome back. Thank you, Chris. Alongside Barber will share insights from their latest triumph, the decisive manager, get results, build morale and the boss, your people deserve. Rated an outstanding five out of five stars on Amazon. This book is heralded as a must read for managers striving to navigate the corporate world. complex terrain of modern workplace dynamics, whether you're wrestling with people issues, looking to hire top talent or aiming to create a culture of growth and development.

Today's episode is packed with practical advice directly from the experts. Get ready for an enlightening discussion that promises to transform the way that you lead. Stay tuned as we uncover the secrets to becoming the decisive manager your team not only needs but deserves. . And I just wanted to let listeners [00:02:00] know to remember you don't want to miss a single moment of today's episode. Stick with us until the very end because Barbara and Cornelia will be sharing exclusive tips not found in their book, the decisive manager.

Plus, we have a special segment where they'll answer the burning question. How can managers effectively lead in the ever evolving landscape of remote and hybrid work? Make sure to listen through to the end for insights that could be the game changer in your leadership journey. Let's unlock the full potential of effective management together right here

once again, , Cornelia, thank you for joining the show. Barbara, thanks for, for joining us today. , What, what I'd like to start with and kind of just dive right into it. , is this that initial spark? What initially inspired you to write the decisive manager? Well, one of the things that we had talked about when we first had the idea for this book was we've written other books in the past. We wrote one called the manager's answer book, and it [00:03:00] really covered the whole spectrum of management. And we, you know, since then, we had written some more and we updated our first book, the big book of HR.

And we realized there's probably a need out there for managers to have their questions answered exclusively around some of those people management issues. So that that was really how we started down this path of the decisive manager. And then the world changed with.

So much remote work and so much so much new information that we felt that it was really appropriate for us to dive in to this topic exclusively on how to how to manage people in our crazy new world. I love it. And, and, you know, Cornelia, when we originally talked, that was, I was in quarantine. So our, I may have been at the office, but that was when everybody was, was just kind of started remote working there.

So I've got my copy here [00:04:00] of the decisive manager. This is the new one I got, you know, right. And get a book bookmark. I got my bookmark here. Uh, this is a subject that is, is really close to my heart. , you know, I'm a financial advisor, but I was a corporate trainer at one point. , and, and as a business owner for the last 20 years, I've been a manager.

I've had to wear an HR hat. It's often difficult for managers and leaders to shift, , You know, shift that role. And so this is a huge, huge area for people. Can you share a specific example or maybe a case study from the book that illustrates a common managerial challenge and how your advice can address that?

Well, I think, first of all, I would start out with the fact that you have to have the right people in order to. To run an organization. And I think that's a piece that many managers forget about. You're a, you're a money guy, Chris, and we've got to have, the money's got to be there and, and pay all those bills and [00:05:00] do all the things that money does for us, but without the right people in the right organization, it really doesn't matter what else you do.

And so we spend a great deal of time in effect. Our first section is about the employee experience. How do you get the right people? How do you keep the right people? How do you utilize the right people in, in whatever environment that you have? So it all starts from there. And then we take it in, you know, many directions.

In the HR world, there are certainly other things that are important. There's nothing more important than having the right people. Absolutely. I know, , Cornelia, when you were on the show before, we talked a bit about this as well, about cultivating talent. , you mentioned, you know, having the, Barbara mentioned having the right people, keeping the right people.

Each one, you could do a whole book just on these, each one of these topics, hugely important. Cornelia, could you talk a little bit [00:06:00] about cultivating talent? Sure. You know, one of the things we, we talk about in probably most of our books is the importance of once you bring people into your organization, making sure that they stay current in, in the role that you initially hired them for, but then also recognizing that they're not going to be happy just, you know, Being in that same role for forever and ever and ever if you want to keep good people in the organization You have to make sure that they update their skills and that you're preparing them for other challenges within the organization You're preparing them for growth and you have a lot of people will cringe when you start talking about training as i'm sure you know From being a corporate trainer, but in this day and age, there are so many resources You For people to turn to that are not terribly expensive that can fit into the budget of an organization [00:07:00] of any size.

I mean, there are, I've joked that you could sit and look, look at a webinar every day. You probably look at several of them every day. There are YouTube videos out there that, you know, especially if you're looking for specific skills, they can show people how to do something. Um, you know, there's readings that people can do.

There are podcasts that people can listen to. So there are, there are a lot of cost effective ways to keep people engaged and to keep them moving. But, you know, I also think exposing them to things within your organization and doing some on the job training is also very, very critically important. That sends such a powerful message that, that the organization cares about them.

And if they know that they're, they're not going to go looking for someplace else to work. . Very important, , points that you made there. You started by saying staying current. So that's always a challenge. There's always roadblocks that come up to that. [00:08:00] You talked about training and how valuable that is.

We live in a world today where it could be as easy as somebody watching a, a video. video or it could be a webinar. There's many different facets. I remember, when I was a trainer, it's always kind of an arm wrestle with the CFO of the company and the HR department as to why it's valuable for our soft skill stuff.

And yet this is such a important piece of the company and what you do. , so really, really good information there. Barbara, I'd like to come back to you because one of the things you mentioned earlier, you talked about employee experience, and that's actually a big topic in the book, uh, the decisive manager.

How does the decisive manager advise managers to create a positive and engaging employee experience, particularly in the context of retention and motivation? Well, it all starts in the hiring process, , well before you even meet the employee, potential employee. I think many, many [00:09:00] managers don't think about the fact that if you post a job, for example, the perspective employee is going to go on your website, check you out.

What's your culture like? What is it? What are your challenges? They spend a great deal of time researching before they even decide to apply. And so that's, that's something that managers need to really be aware of and not miss an opportunity to. Sell a prospective employee before they even apply then they apply You want to make sure that your hiring process is smooth.

It doesn't make them go through 8720 different steps. I may be exaggerating a little bit No, that's about right In many organizations. Yes, make it as easy as possible. Make them want to come work for you You I don't make them think, Oh, if [00:10:00] this is what it's like before I'm hired, I don't want to work there.

So your hiring process, it's where it all begins. And then after you make the offer, which of course is a huge part of this, then you've got the very critical onboarding process. How do you bring the person in? How do you get them into your culture? How do you get them to know the people that are already in the organization?

How do you share what, what your values are? And of course, that what your values are starts on your website as well. They, for sure, they ought to be there. They ought to be there in, depth so that somebody reading it should say, you know, this is an organization that really links with what I want to accomplish.

These employees are not just interested, and I don't mean this, Literally, not just interested in a paycheck. They want to [00:11:00] work somewhere where they feel proud. They want to work somewhere where they, where they, the work that they do makes a difference. And so anything you can do to give them those, those opportunities is what's going to get them to apply to accept the job once you offer it to them.

And then you bring them on board and you make, make sure that they get right into your culture and they get excited. That's it. You want you want your new hire to go home that first night and say, I made a really good decision because people make choices very early on their research that shows people make very quick decisions on if their first day doesn't go well.

You're behind already. So make sure your first day goes well. Make it as fun as you can. And I know it's. It's getting harder and harder because of remote work, but it's not impossible. We've got some great ways in [00:12:00] the book and we can talk about those if, if you'd like at some point, uh, but I think the employee experience is, is everything about who they are when they are at work, uh, and how you're, how they're treated, how they feel.

How they want to talk about, I want to tell their friends, I'm really working for this great company. May not be a household word. That doesn't matter. We do really good work. We are making it. I'm proud to be there. I love that. A lot of really good information there. Uh, you talked about, you know, right at the beginning, the hiring process, , giving a good experience.

If you make it, super complicated and kind of like jumping through hurdles. Uh, that's not a good experience for people coming on board. They're the very important offer, making the offer, being consistent, uh, bringing the , corporate culture and the [00:13:00] values into the process. Early on, when you're doing the onboarding process, how do we keep that, momentum going and kind of front load that positive experience?

Very, very important information for people who are in that role of hiring, whether it's the HR person, whether it's the manager, both of them, these are super important things. And then absolutely for sure, we will continue our conversation on managing remote teams because Cornelia and me started that when we were right, right, right.

At the beginning of, of, uh, of COVID. And what was funny is cause when I listened, I went back and listened to that show, uh, you guys did the 10 year anniversary of the big book of HR. And one of the things that we talked about then was working remotely. And we said, well, we don't, you know, 10 years later, when we're looking at this, we don't want people to be caught with the, and it turns out the remote working stuff, this is not going away.

This is. This is a very important thing. So let me put it [00:14:00] this way. With the shift towards remote and hybrid work, what key strategies do you suggest in the Decisive Manager for managers to maintain team cohesion and performance? One of the big discussions that we're seeing these days is people not wanting to come back to the office.

And the mandates that, you know, if, if you live in, in the vicinity, you know, in the geographic vicinity of where the company is located, you have to come into the office. And, you know, people are kind of shunning that and saying, wait a minute, why I can be just as effective being at home. Why do I have to go into the office five days a week?

Why do I have to deal with traffic if you live in a large metro area? And, and all of that, you know, if you want people to be in the office more frequently, and I, I honestly think that mandating everybody to be there five days a week during certain hours is a big mistake, because They're just going to look for [00:15:00] someplace else to work.

But if you want to draw them into the office, make it a magnet, make, make there be a reason for them to be there. You know, if you want people in the office twice a week for meetings and so that they can collaborate with, with, other people, make sure it's a meaningful experience and it's going to be worth their time and effort to get there.

 If most of your work will be there, Forest is fairly close by, you know, not, not out in, you know, remote areas around the country. You can do some fun things on occasion. Um, you know, have a plan to have some kind of , a party or an ice cream social in, in the afternoon so that they'll stick around for something like that, you know, with, um, with the upcoming, , March Madness season plan to have tailgate parties in the cafeteria.

So, you know, so people can kind of get into more of a festive mood, but, you know, even beyond that, make [00:16:00] sure that they're not coming in for meetings that are just dull and boring and where nothing is getting accomplished, you know, plan things out accordingly so that, that they feel like they're, they're making a contribution when they're there and that their time in the office is valuable, but, you know, also don't forget.

Some of the time that they spend, you know, working from home alone where they can be more focused and concentrated, , can really help their productivity and, and help the organization. Absolutely. I a hundred percent agree. Barbara, do you have anything to add to that as well? I think making the, time that's in the office really productive.

I so that I keep hearing about organizations that call people into the office a two days a week, and then they have meetings on those two days, but everybody's not there on the same two days. So then they still do their meetings on [00:17:00] zoom. And so why would I drive into the office when I live in Washington, DC, where traffic is idiots?

Uh, as I know, Houston is as well. Yeah, there's, there's no way I want to go make that effort and then still have a meeting on zoom. What's the point? Uh, and so really thinking through how you, uh, How you bring people together. I think Cornelia mentioned the word fun. Fun is not a four letter word. It's a great three letter word that the managers should really embrace.

Uh, and I'm thinking things like, uh, food, you're going to bring people into the office and make sure that there's something, , some reason for them to come in and make it, make it some sort of fun that, , whether it's a , company brings in bagels or whatever it is. But make it so that they know that [00:18:00] you've thought about, that you have put some effort into the fact that being there is, is important.

And here's the reasons why, but don't make them come in and then just behave as if they're sitting in their, in their home office. Doing the same thing they would be normally. What is the point? You know we can dull meetings, right Getting a rid of dull meetings just for the purpose to have these these same meetings over and over so making sure that when we're there We're having the most impact you mentioned things like, you know having fun just Bringing food in the tailgating that we've got March Madness, all of that stuff coming up, things that we could, , put events around and just make it fun when we, when we do have people in the office, you know, I want to applaud y'all for including that in the decisive manager because, you know, me and my wife were talking about this.

She got her MBA, you know, in the last. Five years prior to Covid, and we [00:19:00] had a discussion about how this is really a leadership crisis. We've got the CEOs who are not 100 percent on board because they just don't trust what the people are working and doing, you know, because they're used to one model.

They're used to the ways that. And we've got personality types that actually function better when they're able to focus and not be interrupted throughout the day. And so that doesn't necessarily compute there. And so for managers and leaders, there's the challenge that this is stuff that we, when we were getting our MBAs, it wasn't on there.

New territory that we're heading into. So I love the fact that in the book, the decisive manager, you guys have updated that, and you brought this discussion and this debate, not only forward, but you're giving us practical tips on how to work with this as leaders and as managers, uh, really, really good stuff there.

We've got about 10 minutes before the end of the show. , let's talk about. What we just talked about adapting to change, uh, given the [00:20:00] rapid changes that we come into in the workplace. How does your book guide managers and staying adaptable and resilient while leading their teams?

Well, I think one thing is taking care of yourself as a manager. I think we've got to do better at making sure that we're all taking care of ourselves. Self care is so critical. And the world is so complicated and making sure that we're getting enough sleep, eating right, getting enough exercise, doing all the things that can make.

You a good person and therefore can make you a good manager. Can't have one without the other. I don't think. Uh, but then it's, it's some very, very, very basic managerial skills. Cornelia has probably fascinated that it's taken me this long dimension. My usual favorite word here, and that is being a good listener.

Managers just have to [00:21:00] better and better and better at listening to their employees. And not just not just as you said, Chris, a moment ago, expecting that this is the way it's always been. This is the way it's always going to be. No, we need to know what's on your mind. How are you today? Uh, what we learned.

I think one of the things we learned so emphatically during. Was managers who made those phone calls their employees one by one by one by one and just said, how are you doing? Are you okay? Uh, when we were all separated, that is a, it doesn't, that's not a COVID kind of a, it's not a pandemic kind of a skill.

That is a very, very, very strong good management skill. And not enough managers pay attention to it. Being a good listener is hugely important in making this new [00:22:00] world work I would say regarding the book, one of the things that, as we were planning it out, we realized, Because there was so many things that were changing, you know, we, we kind of ran into that when we were writing the big book of HR, as you mentioned, but, you know, fast forward a year and we were saying, okay, now we know what some of these challenges really are.

And so we made sure that in every section, we had like a subsection about navigating the new workplace, because it. It has changed, it is continuing to change and, as you said earlier, Chris, we're just not going back to the way things were. Even though some people, I think, would like to do that.

Well, I did tell the listeners that we would talk about one thing outside of the book, and I Don't think this is in here, but do you guys have any thoughts about artificial intelligence, AI, , and its applications as a worker? Should we be worried? Should we reskill? [00:23:00] What, where does that fall? I think all of the above is probably appropriate.

Uh, I don't think we can put our heads in the sand and say, it's going to go away. It's not. Uh, and so what, what can we learn from it? How can we use it? And there are some very practical ways that we can, we can use it. Uh, I think being, not being afraid of it, uh, like any, this, this is one of the biggest, I think, in thinking in, in my lifetime of changes that we've had to face as a, as a world.

So let's, uh, let's not, uh, make ourselves Uh, you know, paranoid about it. Let's say, Okay, how can we use? What are the ways we can? How can I learn about it? I mean, I just this morning turned on my computer and something popped up and said, You want to want to try a I on this? And I thought, Oh, I, I don't know, maybe I, maybe [00:24:00] I, maybe I do.

Uh, and at the moment I knew, I knew where I was headed with it. I didn't feel like I needed, but it might be something that I would say, yeah, help me. So I, I think, uh, we're going to all learn together and it's going to be exciting. But like any other change, uh, there are people that. Adapt, change there and there are people that fight it.

There are people that will never get to it. And I suspect they'll be the ones left behind. Very, very good information. Cornelia, thoughts? Yeah, I, I would say I agree. I mean, I, I know like in, in the world of writing and, um, you know, there have been a lot of authors who have already starting to get burned by ai, , with, with AI coming along and, you know, stealing their work or, or taking portions of their work, you know, without permission.

And, and I can certainly see that, you know, that, that side of the equation. Um, you know, [00:25:00] even in talking to our agent one time, she said, you know, you sign a contract and you are, um, you're basically stating that you're going to submit original work. And how do we know that an author is not submitting something that say I generated, but you know, having said that, I, I think like everything else, it's don't look at it as a substitute, but look at it as a tool that can help you.

And, you know, if you're, um, you know, If you're writing something, you know, whether it's in the business world or as a writer, you know, if you sometimes, you know, we all get writers block. I mean, pulling something up on a I will spur an idea. It doesn't mean you have to use verbatim what they've written.

But, , It gives you an idea of, oh, maybe I can rephrase that. Oh yeah, that's kind of where I wanted to go with that, that particular thought. Um, you know, and I think the other thing is to be cautious and say, be able to spot some of this. stuff. And I know Barbara and I have talked [00:26:00] about, you know, get getting these blind messages from people and you start reading it and going, huh?

And a couple of times I, I, in the, in the beginning of, of the emergence of, of, of AI, I'd go, that's really stupid. And then I go, Oh, wait a minute. I'll get you anything that that was AI generate. Nobody talks like that. Nobody writes like that. So, you know, um, you can use it as a very, very valuable tool. Um, but, but still make it authentic, make it your own.

If it's, if it's ideas that you're looking for and then sometimes it's great ideas too, but you can just love it. Yeah. I I know, uh, Cornelia, we talked about for, I would encourage listeners to go back to our first episode, cause we talked a little bit more about your writing process.

Cause I'm always fascinated when I talk to authors about the, Writing process. So you, you can tune into that one and we'll do a more or you'll hear a little bit more about that. We've got just two minutes [00:27:00] before the show is over. So, so, um, let me see what I'd like to end with. You know, one of the things y'all talk about is feedback and growth.

What role does constructive feedback play in employee development? And I'm going to be bad because I'm only going to give you about two minutes to answer that. Uh, so concise. I think it's critical. Um, but you have to learn how to do it right. You have to be able to give that, that feedback constructively in a way that it makes the employee feel positive about themselves, that, that you're not, you're not looking to, to ding them on something.

You're Looking to point out what they've done horribly, but it's let's see what we can learn from this experience. How could you have done it better? Barbara thoughts on that as well. Well, I, I like the idea of being future focused on feedback. It's not what you've done wrong in the past. It's what, [00:28:00] what you can do and how you can do more of it.

And that changes everything when you're talking about moving somebody from a place that they could be a little bit better. Give them a little encouragement and see how they can fly. people will respond. Decisive manager. Um, we to tell in here. Cornelia anything that I forgot to like to leave listeners w Yeah, there you go.

More information. You know, they can go to our website, big book of HR dot com and they'll find information on all of our books and there's links to where they can buy it. So we certainly hope that they'll take advantage of that. Absolutely. And if you're driving while you're listening to this, we're going to have that link in the podcast notes as well.

Barbara Cornelia, thank you so much for being on the show today. Have a good rest of the day there. Thank you, Chris. It's been a [00:29:00] delight.