Money Matters 324 - How Poor Sleep Costs You Money & Success with Dr. Meeta Singh

Meeta Singh MD Money Matters Podcast

[00:00:00] How does poor sleep really affect our work performance and decision making abilities? I mean, you know, if you think about all the functions of the brain, um, they get affected by in a, in, in a. In a detrimental way with poor sleep, you know, I, I always think, I think that, um, one of the things that preferentially gets impaired one part of the brain that's preferentially gets impaired when you get less sleep is, um, Your prefrontal cortex, which is the which is the brain that just behind your forehead.

So when people don't get enough sleep, they're making decisions in which their emotional brain is overactive, while the good judgment part of that brain is actually asleep. Right? And, and actually, You know, there's been a lot of research, which shows that that if you don't get enough sleep, um, you know, there's there's increase in in, um, [00:01:00] internet, uh, you know, people show up to work, but they're not really present. 

Chris: Discussions in this show should not be construed as specific recommendations or investment advice. Always consult your investment professional before making important investment decisions. Securities offered through registered representatives of Cambridge Investment Research, a broker dealer member, Fenra Sipic.

Chris: Advisory services through Cambridge Investment Research, Inc., a registered investment advisor. Cambridge and Houston First Financial Group are not affiliated.

Welcome to Money Matters with Chris Hensley, where we spotlight financial literacy issues in the Houston community and beyond. And now your host, Chris Hensley.

Chris: Imagine if your productivity, financial decisions, and even your overall health could be shaped by one overlooked factor, your sleep. Today, Dr. Meeta Singh, renowned sleep specialist, shares how understanding the science of sleep and transform how you perform and make money [00:02:00] driven decisions every day.

Chris: Don't miss this. Keep listening all the way to the end. I'm Chris Hensley. Our show today is Money Matters and, uh, Dr. Singh, thank you so much for joining us today.

Meeta Singh MD: Chris, thank you for having me.

Chris: Absolutely. Can you share a little bit about yourself so that listeners can get to know you?

Meeta Singh MD: So I'm a, a board certified sleep medicine specialist as well as a psychiatrist.

Meeta Singh MD: Um, I've done my, I did my medical training at Mayo Clinic, uh, did a fellowship in sleep medicine at the Henry Ford sleep disorder center. I have a, uh, large private practice and, uh, the practice. It's somewhat unique. I work with professional athletes, C suite executives, actually work a lot in the financial world and essentially with the focus of optimizing sleep so that that enhances and optimizes performance as well as overall health.[00:03:00]

Chris: I love it. Now, when you, when we, you reached out to me and we thought about this show, I look back and over the 10 years of doing this show, I'm like, we didn't do an episode on sleep yet. This is such a great topic. Uh, and it sounds like you're working with peak performers, athletes. Um, I, I doing the research on the show.

Chris: I saw that you had been on a podcast for whoop, the wearable band. They have their own podcast. So. Great, great topic. But let's let's back up a little bit and kind of think of it from the layperson, somebody who's just getting their feet wet on sleep and kind of understanding what it's about. Can you explain why sleep is so essential for mental and physical health?

Chris: And what happens to our bodies during sleep that we often just take for granted?

Meeta Singh MD: That is a very good question. So, so think about sleep as a biological need, right? You spend a third of your life sleeping. One third. And so it's sleep. If [00:04:00] sleep did not serve an absolutely vital function, wastage of time. Now, sleep is a biological need and it's a time Where your brain is disengaged from the environment and it's unresponsive to the environment and because your body is inactive, it forces you to rest.

Meeta Singh MD: So rest and recovery happen while you're sleeping. And so I, you know, I think a good way for your audience to understand it is to think about different body parts. So all the functions that you need for your brain, they are sleep enhances them. So anything you learn, so memory consolidation happens during the sleep.

Meeta Singh MD: emotional intelligence, which is the ability to, to relate with other people. Uh, you know, that is a function of a well rested brain [00:05:00] creativity or problem solving is what happens during your sleep. But then in addition to that, Not just in your, in your brain, but every, every part of your body, the functioning of your, you know, rest and recovery in different physiological systems in your body happen while you're sleeping.

Meeta Singh MD: So, you know, people ask, why do people sleep? Well, people sleep so you can show up and are alert and productive the next day. That's the reason we sleep.

Chris: I love it. I love it. And I think of rest and recovery, you know, some of the people that you work with, the financial people, the athletes, those are some of the hardest to kind of get by the shoulder and say, Hey, you need some recovery.

Chris: Right. So having this, this kind of working just in the background while you're asleep, uh, the things that you mentioned, creativity, memory, huge things, you know, that, that we need to, to have, uh, a recovery [00:06:00] period in there to. The re up our, our, uh, our game, right? So let's talk about, because of the, that you've worked with a lot of these athletes before, let's talk a little bit about that.

Chris: You've worked with elite athletes to improve their performance through sleep optimization. What unique strategies do you use to help athletes sleep better? And how can everyday people apply similar tactics?

Meeta Singh MD: Well, so, so think about, you know, and lead athletes from the time they wake up to the time they go to sleep.

Meeta Singh MD: You know, they have a coach, they're trying to optimize everything, so it absolutely makes sense that they should do that for the time when they're asleep, right? And so, um, I think that, that, um, you know, for, for athletes, monitoring their sleep, figuring out what their patterns are, trying to fit sleep in, um, during their regular season, which can be really, really busy because [00:07:00] of, All the demands that they have on them becomes really, really essential.

Meeta Singh MD: Plus, Chris, um, everything that happens during the day affects how you sleep at night and how you sleep at night affects how you show up the next day. And so, um, you know, managing the stress and anxiety, which may result in poor sleep also becomes absolutely essential. And that's really is. Almost all of us, right?

Meeta Singh MD: So, uh, it, it, what happens is that for most people, they're on the go, go, go the entire day. And then when they get into bed, that's the first time they allow themselves to think. And sometimes they have racing thoughts, et cetera, that prevent them from sleeping at night. So, so managing your stress during the day so that it doesn't overwhelm you at night becomes really, really important.

Chris: I love it. I think about I don't, I'm not a huge athlete, but I've [00:08:00] done jujitsu. I competed for several years and one of the best sleeps you get is after a training. Sometimes your body just tells you like, Hey, you're taking a nap. That's, that's what's happening, right? Um, you, you mentioned, you know, uh, people not being able to sleep, to have that kind of worry or, or, um, what about that doom throwing people that just get up in the middle of the night and then get on their electronics.

Chris: How does that.

Meeta Singh MD: Well, it affects you people in a detrimental way in two ways, right? So the first thing is that when you, um, when you, when, you know, the people who design phones and, and the apps, they, they know exactly what they're doing. They have behavioral scientists who are helping them. And these.

Meeta Singh MD: They're very, very addicting. So I always tell people it's like, it's very similar to going to a buffet table. You never walk away from a buffet table thinking you ate less. Right. You and [00:09:00] similarly, if you're, if you're scrolling or going on, on social media, typically people lose track of time and that eats away from the time that they should be sleeping.

Meeta Singh MD: So that's number one. Number two is what are they doing on it? Right? So if they're, if they're, um, uh, if they're looking at something that is, that can be anxiety provoking, that, um, you know, draws your attention that itself can make, yeah. it more difficult to fall back asleep. And of course, not just the interactive nature of what they're doing on the phone, but also the exposure to bright light, right?

Meeta Singh MD: So if you're, if you're, if you're, you have a, if you're looking into a screen and you're shining, Light into your eyes that makes it more difficult for people to relax and go to sleep. So typically at night You know, there's certain things they call sleep hygiene, which is basically what you can do in the environment to make sure that your Your nighttime sleep is protected [00:10:00] and that typically is you want to keep your bedroom cold.

Meeta Singh MD: You want to keep it dark? You don't want to be you don't want to be doing things At bedtime, that can be stress provoking. So you don't want to be working in bed or you don't want to be doom scrolling, et cetera, because that will prevent you from either initiating or maintaining sleep.

Chris: All very good tips there.

Chris: I think of the physical part of just your body needing the rest, but then what we just talked about was the mental part of the, the addictiveness of these, these, uh, apps on our phones, right? Uh, you know, is somebody getting up in the middle of the night and say, well, I'll just get on the phone for a second.

Chris: And nah, that doesn't happen. You're on there for a while and you're introducing these thoughts into your head. So if you do have the stress and anxiety, it kind of gives you that circular. Worry thinking there. So all very, very good points. You also mentioned the idea of low light, the idea that it's better, uh, it's more conducive to good sleep hygiene to have low light and not turning these [00:11:00] electronics on in the middle of the night.

Chris: So really good points for us to remember, uh, along the same lines. I wanted to talk about diet and exercise more on the physical part of it, right? How did diet and exercise impact our sleep quality? Are there specific foods or types of workouts that help? or hinder a good night's rest?

Meeta Singh MD: Well, so that's a very good question, right?

Meeta Singh MD: So, like I said, everything you do during the day predicts how well you're going to sleep at night. And an integral part of that is diet and exercise. So, um, any sort of exercise, both cardiovascular as well as strength training, help in sleeping at night. But if you overtire yourself, So if there's something, there's something called overtraining syndrome, especially in athletes, when they, when they do too much, then that sometimes prevents them from.

Meeta Singh MD: from sleeping at night. [00:12:00] Sometimes the timing of the exercise also matters, right? So, uh, in some people who have poor sleep, if you do a strenuous workout really close to your bedtime, well, that is going to, that may prevent you from sleeping at night. And so you want to be, you want to be a little careful about that too.

Meeta Singh MD: So, so that's what I would say about exercise. And also remember, so exercise is also, you know, kind of helps Uh, anchor your, your, um, your rhythms. So you want to, you want to exercise. For me, I'm a morning person, exercising in the morning is a good thing for me. You know, if I exercise too close to my bedtime, it may prevent me from going to sleep.

Meeta Singh MD: For other people who are nighttime, who have a tendency to be night owls, maybe exercising later in the evening is good for them. The same thing applies to a diet. There are some really simple rules to follow. You know, if you eat, [00:13:00] um, a large meal or spicy meals too close to your bedtime, well, that's going to prevent you from getting good restful sleep.

Meeta Singh MD: It's going to impair the quality of your sleep. Plus, you're sending or the wrong signal to your brain because you've just eaten a large meal and your body is preparing to shut down and now it has to, you know, gear up to digest that meal. So you want to, you want to exercise, you want to eat, uh, you want to keep some time before you actually fall asleep.

Meeta Singh MD: Like that's how you want to, you want to schedule your meals in, uh, uh, and bring some, some external. Um, schedule to it. I'll also say one thing, you know, for, um, typically at night, uh, carbohydrate, uh, rich diet kind of helps you sleep at night. And for some people, when they're, um, for, especially for athletes.

Meeta Singh MD: If, you know, they might get really hungry if the time between the time they [00:14:00] go to bed and the time that they've eaten that large, uh, that last meal is too long. So eating a smaller snack, maybe some yogurt or, you know, nuts that might be, or a banana or a couple of bananas is actually a good idea.

Chris: I love it.

Chris: I love it. A lot of really good information there. I think about the guys who are cutting weight to compete there and then they go to bed hungry. And then that doesn't work for them, right? There's a way, like, boy, I wish I could eat something. Uh, you also mentioned the idea of, uh, I'm kind of the same, a morning person, so working out in the morning is good for me, but if I work out in the afternoon or the evening, my heart rate gets up.

Chris: It's harder for me to go to sleep then, but everybody's different is, is, is what you were saying there. Just having some guardrails on that and knowing that that's a thing. Um, we talked about the, sometimes having a carb heavy, meal at night does help make sure a little bit sleepier there. Um, let's let's talk about productivity.

Chris: Many people sacrifice sleep to be more productive. [00:15:00] How does poor sleep really affect our work performance and decision making abilities?

Meeta Singh MD: Well, that's a that's again a very good question. I mean, you know, if you think about all the functions of the brain, um, they get affected by in a in in a In a detrimental way with poor sleep, you know, I, I always think, I think that, um, one of the things that preferentially gets impaired, one part of the brain that preferentially gets impaired when you get less sleep is your prefrontal cortex, which is the, which is the brain that just behind your forehead.

Meeta Singh MD: And that part of the brain is responsible for good decision making, for multitasking, um, uh, for your judgment. And that gets preferentially impaired. And in addition, there's actually one part of the brain that lights up when you get less sleep, which is your emotional brain. So when people don't get enough sleep, they're making decisions in which their [00:16:00] emotional brain is overactive, while the good judgment part of their brain is actually asleep.

Meeta Singh MD: And so that impairs the way that they show up. Right. And, and actually, you know, there's been a lot of research which shows that, that if you don't get enough sleep, um, you know, there's, there's increase in, in, um, internet, uh, you know, people show up to work, but they're not really present. And so there, there there's internet loafing, which is like they're on social media such as they're wasting that time.

Meeta Singh MD: And, um, it's also, there's also research that shows that they, you know, you're the interactions that you have with your coworkers or the interaction that you have either with your subordinates or your boss that, uh, becomes impaired because your judgment is slightly off. So people should, you should really think about.

Meeta Singh MD: Showing up well rested. Um, there's one more thing I want to touch [00:17:00] upon. I think when, when people get less sleep on a chronic basis, what happens is because their judgment is impaired, their ability to tell that they're impaired is also impaired. Does that make sense? So they're not, it's like when you're drinking alcohol, you should be the last person who decides whether you are fit to drive.

Meeta Singh MD: And so sleep, getting less sleep is similar to that. And so, because the people can't tell whether they're impaired, I think that makes it even worse because people don't have that ability to say that, well, you know, I'm not at my level best today. And so that's why, you know, on a consistent basis, trying to get good sleep becomes a very important thing.

Chris: I think I read a book many years ago, uh, that if you're in your, your work environment, a coworker comes up to you, if you've had lack of sleep, sometimes you perceive that as a threat when it's not a threat, but just because you didn't have enough sleep and, um, and then interesting now that we're in a [00:18:00] remote world, right?

Chris: You brought up the idea of internet loafing, which I had not heard that term before, but I liked the. Because it is a way of like, wait, are people working on that? So kind of gauging that and I would see, I can see where sleep would also make it difficult for them to focus on the task at hand. So super important stuff.

Chris: Now we all can wake up and, and, you know, whether it's a get up on the wrong side of the bed, right? We can have a day where we've had poor sleep or poor sleep hygiene. But there are some people who have it chronically, right? Where this happens repeatedly, repeatedly over and over and over. I think those are called sleep disorders.

Chris: What are some of the most common sleep disorders that you see in your practice and what treatments or therapies are most effective for them?

Meeta Singh MD: Of course. So yeah, I mean, sleep disorders are often largely undiagnosed. So the, the, the two main sleep disorders are sleep apnea, which is when people stop breathing at night.

Meeta Singh MD: This can happen many times an [00:19:00] hour. And you know, 85 to 90 percent of people are not aware that they have sleep apnea. You know, these are people who might be snoring, who makes, may make strange noises. And then insomnia is a disorder in which people have difficulty initiating and maintaining sleep or non restorative sleep.

Meeta Singh MD: And they have this, you know, it lasts longer than a month or so. I have to tell you that I, that, that for many people, sleep disorders are largely Undiagnosed because, well, firstly you're asleep, right? So you don't really know what's happening. And then to that there's sleep amnesia, which is like something that happens at night and you've not been long enough, you know, you've not been awake long enough.

Meeta Singh MD: So people don't remember that there's something strange is going on at night. So people don't seek help for it. I'll tell you in my practice, we have this thing. Um, [00:20:00] and, and of course, you know, there's. One last thing that typically many primary care physicians may not ask about people's sleep. Now, in my practice, we have this bespoke sleep profiling, which is, um, a, a bookended three week program in which we have people come in.

Meeta Singh MD: They, um, you know, they, they meet with somebody on our staff. Uh, they have, they fill out some sleep assessments, which give us a really good comprehensive psychological and, you know, neurological profile about their sleep. And then we do sleep studies, which are consecutive. So we do it for at least a minimum of 10 to 14 days in a row at people's homes.

Meeta Singh MD: So these are FDA approved sleep studies to figure out what what's You know what's happening with their sleep and then we put all this information together and it's, and it's, uh, you know, it's like, um, it's like a vital sign, you know, [00:21:00] you go every year to your, uh, doctor to, you know, get your labs drawn to figure out if you're on the right path.

Meeta Singh MD: So since my practice is a concierge sleep medicine practice, it's a, it's a proactive preventive. Um, practice in which, uh, the, the kind of, you know, in addition to athletes and, and, and C suite executives, you know, I'm people who come to my practice are people a, if they, their, their physician sends us to, uh, them to us that they may or may not have a sleep disorder.

Meeta Singh MD: or when people say, Hey, I, I think I may have a sleep disorder or just people who are healthy and they want to stay healthy. So they're like, you know, we've got everything else when it comes to our health figured out, but we want to find out whether, but I'm getting healthy sleep. And, and, you know, we do this on a, on an annual basis to, to make sure that they.

Meeta Singh MD: They are healthy and they stay healthy.

Chris: I [00:22:00] love that. So that's a pretty big range there for anybody who's already got these chronic issues where the, the, the sleep apnea was one that you mentioned. Um, I laughed a little bit cause when you, you mentioned that you're asleep and you don't know it. Um, my wife told me one time, or it's several times I've done this where I've hawked into my sleep.

Chris: Uh, just might have been dreaming or something and said something. He said it's the creepiest thing that's, it'll be in the middle of the night and I'm like laughing or something, saying something, and, and then I have no recollection of it. The next day I was like, I, I don't know what you're talking about, but I, I imagine sleep apnea in some ways.

Chris: You're asleep. You don't know. So the idea that you guys are doing this diagnostic where it's taken weeks of, of data to really see what's going on while you're sleeping. That, that sounds huge. And then you also mentioned people that are, you know, considered not chronic or, or sleep disorders, but they're healthy and they want to maintain that way.

Chris: Um, that's always good to get in front of something and, and what are the best practices and that sort of [00:23:00] thing. So. So huge, very huge there. Uh, let's talk about the future of sleep science, what new research or advancements in sleep science are you excited about and how might that change the way we approach sleep in the next decade or so?

Meeta Singh MD: Oh, I, this is my favorite, uh, topic because you know, you know, we, with science and the new tools we have out there, like this is. Is progressing at a very rapid, uh, just at a really rapid rate, you know, traditionally, if you wanted to get your sleep evaluated, you'd probably go to your primary care, you know, a physician or a provider, and then they would refer you.

Meeta Singh MD: based on like, for example, let's take Chris's example, right? Your wife would say, look, this is becoming a problem. You need to go get evaluated and then you'd, you'd be evaluated, right? Now we don't have to, we don't need to do, you know, we've, [00:24:00] we've, uh, we have telemedicine. You can, you know, I'm, for example, I'm, I have, um, have licenses in, in 11 states.

Meeta Singh MD: So I see patients, uh, in different states. You can do it via telemedicine. You can do the sleep The actual FDA approved sleep study. at the patient's home. They don't need to travel and go to a sleep lab. And you get, you know, you get consecutive, you can get longitudinal data in which you can look at sleep over a few days or over a few nights.

Meeta Singh MD: You know, for example, for athletes, you can get to see them how they're sleeping at home if they're in their home team and they're sleeping at home and when they travel, when they go to a new time zone, how they're sleeping there. And it gives you a really good Good information. So now, now, you know, the assessment and the diagnoses becomes really individualized.

Meeta Singh MD: It gives [00:25:00] us, we can, we can, we're not just looking at like one night in a sleep lab, but we can give information of what happens in your sleep environment. And so the solutions also become really optimized and individualized. That's what I, that's what's most exciting about sleep now. Medicine in today's world.

Chris: I love it. I love it. Very optimistic idea of what the technology, bringing technology in and the idea of not even know, you know, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you had to go to these clinics and stay there. And now you can do this from the comfort of your own home, but still have a physician, uh, an expert there with you to guide you along the way.

Chris: So. I love that. I also wanted to ask you another question here, and this one has to do with things like jet lag or, um, I work with state employees. Some of those are overnight employees, shift workers, right? So they have these strange schedules. I also think about firemen, right? They're, they're doing these 48 hour stints where they're, sometimes they're up [00:26:00] for many hours.

Chris: How does that? Work in relation to our body's natural sleep rhythm.

Meeta Singh MD: Well, and, and, and I, you know, before I, before I answer and give you some background about, you know, those rhythms and jet lag, these are essential services, right? Like the fireman who's out there and is on call for 24 to 48 hours is doing really, really essential work.

Meeta Singh MD: And we want them to be well rested. So, so just for your audience, just to explain to them, you know, we, all of us, we have this clock, timekeeping system which we have in our brain, right? It's called your circadian clock, and it keeps time over 24 hours, and it's also, you know, regularly set to exposure to light and darkness.

Meeta Singh MD: So, um, now if, if you're up too late and you're not maintaining that, you know, if you're, if you're working non traditional [00:27:00] hours, you can have, you're a shift worker and not all shift workers have a sleep disorders, but some do. And so they may have difficulty sleeping when they're supposed to, they may have difficulty being alert when they're supposed to be at work.

Meeta Singh MD: And then of course, there's also people who. Um, you know, I have to, um, take a plane and go to a different time zone to work. And whenever you, when you do that, you know, you get on a jet to do that, your circadian rhythms, they lag behind and they can cause all these symptoms again in difficulty sleeping at the new time zone, difficulty being alert when at your new time zone at the local times.

Meeta Singh MD: And, um, And again, typically this is, this is always addressed in a individualist, individual individualized fashion in which you look at somebody's circadian rhythms, you look at their travel schedule or their work schedule, and then you guide them or help them, uh, [00:28:00] you know, sleep. And, um, in a scheduled time and be alert at an, uh, at a scheduled time.

Meeta Singh MD: Sometimes, you know, simple things like making strategically protecting your nighttime sleep. I'll tell you if like for somebody who's a night shift worker, you know, you and I would think twice before calling somebody in the middle of the night. Right at like, say, three in the morning, but we do that randomly during the day.

Meeta Singh MD: So like things like making sure your phone is turned off if you're trying to sleep during the day, making sure your bedroom is cold and dark and making sure that you protect your night, your sleep if it's happening during the day so that you can be fresh at night. Those are some of the strategies that one can use.

Chris: That makes a lot of sense. Hitting that do not disturb on the phone, keeping the lights low, um, you know, hopefully maybe getting some heavy, uh, curtains if they're mowing the grass outside or something. Uh, but, but super important for people that work those, uh, [00:29:00] those hours, uh, that want to have a productive family life and they don't want to doze off in the middle of dinner.

Chris: Uh, super important these tips that you're giving us, uh, this information here. I love it. I love it. Well, we've got just a few minutes before we're bumping towards the end of the show. Dr. Singh, what have I forgot to ask you that you'd like to share with listeners today?

Meeta Singh MD: I think, I think that if I was to talk about like, you know, quick tips about how you can make sure you get enough sleep, I think one of the things I would talk about is is um, winding down.

Meeta Singh MD: So it's really, really important to build a, again, an individualized wind down schedule just before you're going to bed. So, you know, if for many people they're working really hard and then they turned the computer off and then they're commanding themselves to fall asleep. That's not how sleep happens.

Meeta Singh MD: You really need to, you know, uh, [00:30:00] uh, set aside about 30 to 45 minutes in which you do something quiet and relaxing, you know, brushing your teeth, maybe taking a hot bath or a shower. Um, if people have spiritual, uh, uh, you know, lives, that's the good time to do it. Do something, some, you know, relaxing, um, some stretching, exercising, uh, exercises, maybe reading.

Meeta Singh MD: Um, even, even if it If it includes like watching TV, something relaxing, with a timer, those are things that you can do to help you fall asleep. The other tip I would give to people is that your brain really likes consistency. So trying to go to bed and wake up at the same time with not much of an hour, maybe an hour difference between work days and weekends is really important because many times people, um, you know, they go to bed, um, during the, during the weekday and they have to wake up at a certain time, but then on the weekend they go to bed three or four hours later and then sleep until noon.

Meeta Singh MD: And then they [00:31:00] do this cycle repeatedly. That is. That's not healthy for your sleep. Um, then again, you know, we talked about it should be dark outside. You want it to be, um, uh, you want it to be dark in your bedroom at night, but then during the day you want to be exposed to nice bright light because that helps.

Meeta Singh MD: Set your and strengthen your circadian rhythms. And then of course you want to make sure that you don't drink too much caffeine or even alcohol too close to your bedtime because they can both disrupt your sleep at night.

Chris: I love that. Great information there. Great information. Dr. Singh, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Chris: For listeners who would like to find out more about you, um, what is the best place for them to find information about you?

Meeta Singh MD: Well, I do have a website. It's called meetasinghmd. com. We have a weekly newsletter that goes out to, you know, it's free. When people want to sign up, [00:32:00] um, uh, and you can sign up for that through the website.

Meeta Singh MD: I'm, I'm also quite active on social media. I have a LinkedIn profile. I'm on both Twitter as well as Instagram. And, um, yeah, that's probably the best way

Chris: to, I love it. I love it. That's where I found you was on LinkedIn. So very, very, very good. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Have a good day there.

Chris: Thank you.